Episode 0: Marissa Spills the Tea

Beaker Banter – “Marissa Spills the Tea”

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Grades aren't everything.

They aren't.

They really aren't everything.

They really aren't.

And like you'll get far enough into your career where you won't even.

As soon as you leave the classroom, you have to deal with friction and gravity.

Yeah. There we go. There we go. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

There's no linear approach to solving a problem. There's a thousand approaches. They all have pros and cons.

And that's where creativity comes in, right? Thinking outside the box. Something that we don't emphasize enough, I think, when it comes to science, engineering, math is that it's not straightforward.

Hello everyone and welcome to Beaker Banter. This is episode zero. So, we're kind of at rock bottom, only up from here. You'll get to know a little bit about your host. And the person that will be interviewing me is my roommate, also known as my husband. So, tune in to learn about Dr. Marissa Lithopoulos.

Thank you to our partner Innovation UBC for your wonderful support.

♪So join us

As we laugh and learn 

♪On Beaker Banter

It's our turn

So why Beaker Banter? Why now?

It's an excellent question.

Beaker Banter is a podcast that allows the audience to meet scientists, innovators, people who support scientists and innovators. And I feel like out there in the world, there's a huge disconnect between the innovation space and the rest of the world. It's first of all very complex, very difficult to understand in and of itself. We can all acknowledge that. But more than that, we kind of over complicate our communication of the actual science. And it doesn't have to be at the level of jargon and really boring figures and really dry material. We kind of lost, somewhere along the way, the ability to just engage with whoever it is we're talking to. Because at the end of the day we're doing this science to change the world and how we're doing it needs to come across in less of like a structured way. As experts, we want to be extremely nuanced and careful and and really not oversell what we're saying, but at the same time, if people don't understand the impact of what it is we're doing, it's kind of just a so what? I really don't care. You're working with stem cells. Okay, you're playing around with a dish in a lab. Like, how does that affect my life? Am I going to see a treatment for myself, my friends, for my family? And not being able to communicate that message, I think, is a huge failure for all of humanity. We want to be able to appreciate science and also push it forward because it can always be improved upon. Beaker Banter we'll talk about the science, of course. I love the science, but I really want to talk to the people behind it, understand why they're doing it.

I think you brought up a really good point about the importance of walking that line to be cautious about what you put out in the world with respect to the science and what it's capable of doing and how it can impact people, but also advocating for the positive things it can do and the exciting innovations that are happening. And to talk more about the scientists behind that work and getting to know that individual, their interests. They're driven to do this impactful work and I'm really excited to learn more about these superstars.

Yeah, they really are superstars, rock stars, if you will. And we don't get to hear enough about them. Mhm. It's so interesting because we see a lot of celebrities, athletes, celebrity athletes, celebrity actors, musicians. There's so many different fields where there are these celebrities. And when it comes to scientists, maybe you've heard of Albert Einstein. Yeah. Right. The really, really famous scientists. But the everyday career scientists, a lot of people don't know them. And you know what? They're doing incredible work that you'll hear about one day and maybe not understand it, not know how to use whatever it is that they are able to provide. Maybe it's a little bit frightening because it is such a new technology and those are the scenarios that we're trying to overcome and kind of problem solve here.

So, what can our audience expect from an episode of Beaker Banter?

Beaker Banter is a fun conversation. First and foremost, we're sitting down and we're chatting and you get to know the person. You get to know a little bit about what inspired them growing up. And maybe you'll see how the path to becoming a scientist isn't so straightforward. I have never met one person that has a complete linear trajectory. And you'll get to hear about their cool research. It is cool. Every researcher is doing something that no one has ever done before in this world. And that's exciting. Now, if we can't talk to one another about it, and I am not an expert in everything. I know a lot about a little. So if we can't talk to each other about it, we're figuring out a way to essentially we're speaking different languages. How do we come together so that me as a non-expert can understand what it is they're doing? And we get to see so many different kinds of science in Beaker Banter. I don't want to just focus on my area of expertise, which is stem cells. I think every area of science deserves to be funded and deserves a spotlight.

I'm really excited to get that holistic experience and learn more about the guests and their early life and what really got them on their trajectory. And I wanted to take this opportunity to learn a little bit more about you and your trajectory. I wanted to know about your early life, your childhood, and you know, what what kind of kid was Marissa growing up?

Yeah, I think Marissa growing up was a happy kid. I lived in Ottawa, born and raised, stayed there for many years, did my undergrad there, my doctorate as well. I love the city. It is often said that it's boring and I completely disagree. I just think you need to know what to do. And you know, it's a very family oriented city, which I really appreciate. I grew up with my parents, my mom and dad and my brother in the suburbs and there was a ton to do in terms of just biking around and that was a time when, it was in Kanata, there really wasn't a lot of newer developments and it was like forests upon forests and it was so cool as a kid. Now it's a lot of new houses unfortunately. So it it looks completely different many years later, but as a kid it was just running around the forest, biking around, meeting up with your friends, getting into trouble. You'd be home by dinner. Yeah. Yeah.

Parents didn't know where you were. No. Yeah. I'll be back eventually.

Exactly. Oh, I'm going to sleep over here. And a lot of my best friends like we're just down the street. It was such a a fun time and I I would not say that I knew exactly where I wanted to be. I knew I wanted to help save lives, though. That was a there was an experience that happened really early on that from age six.

What was that?

I had a a severe infection that spread to my brain and I was rushed to the hospital. I was in a coma. The doctors at first didn't know what was wrong and so it's really interesting now that I'm an adult and I read my patient case, I feel like I'm reading like an episode of The Pitt like oh you're prescribing the wrong medication. And eventually they got it right and my life was saved. I actually haven't talked about this very much, but I had to stay in the hospital for a week. And during that time, you know, they're always hospitals are always trying to find space. There's never enough space, right? So, I had different roommates and one of the roommates was a little girl who was my age as well, and she was a cancer patient, my age, six years old, and she unfortunately did not make it. And here I am getting a new chance at life and it was just a moment where I knew whatever it was that I did. And at that time these doctors are saving my life. I thought I'd be a doctor. But I knew I wanted to help save others.

What an impactful experience.

Yeah.

And that really set you on your your path like in high school.

Yeah, I took all the sciences, all the maths. But ...

At home studying every night.

Here's the other part of it. I also secretly wanted to be a Spice Girl. Actually, for my seizure and my coma and the time I was in the hospital, it happened around Christmas time. And that Christmas, I got the full Spice Girl doll set. And so I was like, I'm gonna be a Spice Girl slash doctor when I grow up.

Spice Girl MD.

Exactly. Exactly. And it's kind of funny because it continued like that idea of performing and being able to connect to other people through storytelling. That was something that I also fell in love with really young. I went to drama school in the summer. I was, you know, trying to be part of plays and it was such an important part also of my high school time was performing. I was a rhythmic gymnast, provincial level.

Wow.

And our school play was Romeo and Juliet. We did it Cirque du Soleil themed inspired based off of rhythmic gymnastics. It's really important to, like I said, connect with a story and being able to convey a narrative to others instead of just speaking. I mean, a lot of the topics that we have to talk about in science are really difficult.

Yeah.

Really, really difficult. And instead of just straight up saying it bluntly, there are other ways that we can communicate those messages so that they can be received by everyone.

Such a full early life with managing all these performative activities and what I can only assume was a pretty demanding academic schedule to go with.

Yeah. I just remember I was always lugging around my huge backpack. It would be school and then there was probably some sort of practice at school. Maybe it was for the play, maybe it was sports team. And then I'd take my books and lug them home, do several hours of reading and writing. Then I'd be off to the gym for gymnastics. Two, three, four hours there, then home, bed, start it again. That was it. But I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And another thing about high school that I really loved is that no one was really saying you can't be anything. I never received that message. It was always...

Lots of opportunity.

Lots of opportunity.

World's your own.

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Did you get that from some supportive teachers or just your family network or where was that message really kind of coming from at that time?

Yeah, I think my my parents have been huge supporters of what I do. Like my dad dropped me off to gymnastics, rolled out the gymnastics carpets, rolled them back up, you know, came to all the performances. My mom like helped host and MC competitions. Like my parents were always around supporting me.

That's wonderful.

And they also fully told me like you can whatever you put your mind to, you can do that. And then I had some really awesome teachers. And here's where mentorship really comes into play. My coaches were very important role models growing up.

How did you take that type of message from the more like performative activities in gymnastics and kind of carry that with you in your early scientific career because I believe you went to school in Ottawa for your undergraduate degree as well, right?

Yeah, I did. I did. And you know, it's interesting because I feel like they always have this saying like you can't do it all at the same time. It's really difficult. There's only 24 hours in a day. Of course, you can't do all of the different maybe passions that you have in your life at the same time. I tried to do as many as I could though. Really pushed the limits with that one. And you know, I think it's still a balancing act, though. There was times where gymnastics really heavily was a part of my life and times where I had to actually not be a gymnast myself, not coach, and focus more on my academics because I knew it was like a really critical time and I just I did not have the bandwidth to do everything.

Yeah, the volume of work gets too great. You do have to, you know, put a fork in the road and kind of make a choice.

So, in undergrad, I coached for the first little bit. And then when I by the time I got to my fourth year, I had actually stopped performing and I took on a teaching assistantship at that time for philosophy.

Okay. So, a little outside of the the scientific realm.

Yeah. I did my undergrad in biomed. That's my main staple - the sciences. I stuck with that. And I was also really interested in understanding the ethics of what it is we really do. And for that I wanted a really strong philosophy training. And critical thinking is important no matter what field you're in. So I think you know I say that I had an Honours in Biomedical Sciences and a Minor in Philosophy and people tend to say oh those two are so different and I always think that's pretty funny because when you're a PhD you get your doctorate in philosophy and there's a reason for that. You should be...

Are they so different?

You should be honing your critical thinking skills as a scientist too. Yeah.

So, you know, in your time doing your your biomed undergrad, I'm sure there was a point throughout that where you had to kind of think about what you wanted to do next. And I think a lot of people in that position, they're looking at job opportunities. They're looking at career paths. And I'd be curious to know, was there a moment for you that pushed you closer towards research? What happened to the goal for being an MD? And going that route and how did you get past that point?

Yeah, it's a great question. I took biomedical sciences because I still wanted to be a clinician.

Yeah.

And like so many things, you start on one path and it leads you somewhere else. So you know, I knew I really was interested in understanding how the human body worked. I academia really suited me and my personality like I love locking myself in a room and reading and writing. I can be completely content with that and for hours on end too. Like my focus is very extreme. And so, like the life of an academic the lifestyle definitely suited me and you know you really have to think about how you want not only your career to unfold but also your life. It's more...

Like your day-to-day?

Your day-to-day, right? And of course this isn't the same for all medical disciplines, but for a lot of physicians it is very scheduled. And it is you know, a lot of the work, especially in the Canadian system which is publicly funded health care, is going to be dictated by your patients. That's just how it is. Now as an academic, it's very flexible. That doesn't mean you're going to work less hours I have learned.

So I was going to ask you like at that time do you feel like you had the resources or the people to call on to try and understand more what that day-to-day might be like.

It wasn't until later in my undergrad that I did. I was very fortunate that there was a new researcher coming into town, Dr. Bernard Thébaud, when I was looking for an honours thesis supervisor. And, you know, I reached out to him. I was still basically I'm 19 at the time. I'm a teenager. But I knew, well he was a clinician scientist. So that was something that I thought was really cool. Oh, here's someone that's also doing research and is a clinician. Maybe that's what I want to do.

Yeah. Yeah. And the work that he was doing was on stem cell biology. Oo, this is an interesting field that is growing. And the application is to help preterm babies. And that's an area that's really near and dear to my heart because my brother was born prematurely and sadly did not make it. And if we can do anything to help those vulnerable patients, I want to try. So it was really a great match. We also just kind of understood each other right away and worked well together and he was a great mentor right off the bat.

Wow. Do you have any advice for people that are maybe at a similar point in their educational career and they're considering the industry versus academic route on, you know, what they could do to try and explore those opportunities a bit more?

I would say meet with as many people as you can. Just set up a coffee. Most people are very willing to have a chat. Yeah. And you know, everyone's going to give their own biased opinions, right? I'm gonna be a huge advocate for research and academia and someone else who went into industry and is doing great work there will tell you all the great things. There's always caveats to each of these areas. So meet with as many people as you can. And then if you can, you know, do a little internship or figure out a way to shadow them, that's also a great idea, too, because then you really get to see the day-to-day kind of life. And ask more than it's more than just the work. Ask about like, oh, like how often do you see your family?

Yeah. Yeah. Do you go home for dinner?

Yeah. Do you sleep in the lab? Like things like that.

How many times a week do you eat pizza?

Exactly. And trying to get an understanding of, of course, there's different ways to go about being an academic, for example. But, it's good to get a little taste of the different ways that people are actually able to maneuver these different worlds and see what sits well with you. And you can still take pieces that you like from all of these potential mentors and make your own path.

Yeah, the the PhD experience has been talked about a lot and it's such a a large body of work for for many people going down that route and it's really interesting to hear about your personal connection to Bernard's area of research and what you ultimately went on to study. And I wanted to know if you could talk a little bit to what that project was and maybe some of the key challenges or takeaways that you got going through that experience and wrapping that project up.

Yeah, I so it's a great question because when I graduated and my papers came out, I felt like I didn't have a good way to talk about the work that I did. You can't just, you know, share the paper and I think what we were able to uncover is really important. So in terms of preterm birth the major complications that occur happen in two main organs. There are more but the lungs are underdeveloped. So a common complication is a chronic lung disease. It's called bronchopulmonary dysplasia. BPD for short. I hate to use an acronym, but bit of a mouthful. And basically what happens is your lungs have these little sacs called alveoli that allow for gas exchange to occur. You breathe in oxygen, breathe out CO2. That oxygen goes into your blood and that oxygen travels throughout your body and gets to the different tissues. So really important that we have these alveoli because it allows for more oxygen to get to your body. Now when these alveoli are simplified, there's less of them, less oxygen is able to get around to your body and that can be detrimental to development. What we do in the clinic is we will give these babies high oxygen to counteract that.

Right.

And if the baby still isn't able to get enough oxygen around their body, we push that oxygen into the body through mechanical ventilation.

So, we're already at like a compromised state with the alveoli and they can't absorb the appropriate amount of oxygen and we're using these mechanical means to offset that. That doesn't sound like a permanent solution.

Well, we just need to get that baby by enough so that their lungs grow enough that they can then breathe on their own.

Because they're preterm, because they're still developing.

Exactly. We have to think about them. They're so tiny. They're so little. And this is a life-saving therapy, oxygen therapy. It can also cause complications, right? And the complication is this chronic lung disease unfortunately. So their alveoli will remain not as simplified but more simplified than peers who did not undergo this treatment. And what we can try and do is give steroids actually to speed up lung development. But the steroids are very bad for the brain. So I was really interested, Bernard's lab is a lung biology lab, but I was interested in what was happening in terms of neurodevelopment. We're seeing complications arise where there's hearing problems, vision problems, motor problems, and cognitive impairment. Why? Why is this happening? And that link between the lungs and the brain was very unclear. And that was my mission going into my PhD. And it's interesting because when you it's a pretty big mission to have as a student.

It sounds like a grand goal.

And when you also say the lab was working on, you know, therapy from umbilical cord cells.

The stem cells.

Yes. To treat these complications. And I also said, well, I'm going to use these stem cells and I'm going to help. I'm going to help these complications as well - the lungs and the brain.

So, why the umbilical cord stem cells?

Yeah, it's a great question. Umbilical cords, those stem cells. Well, first off, if the mom agrees and gives consent, then we can use those umbilical cords and those cells can actually be used for any patient. Doesn't have to be that baby's umbilical cord. We're still understanding why that's the case.

Somewhat universal.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. So we need consent and then we can acquire those cells and they're young cells. So they tend to be able to function at higher levels compared to maybe you isolate these types of cells from the bone marrow of an adult. Well, it's not going to be able to divide at the same level as these young umbilical cord cells.

Actually, like a direct link in the performance of the cells based on their age.

Yes. And there's more research being done and maybe we'll find ways to make the adult ones, you know, better at being therapeutic.

Rejuvenate.

Yeah. But right now the umbilical cord ones at the at the time and currently, are superior. And what we did was not only use the cells, but we used what the cells were actually providing to their environment. So when the cells are in a dish, they're going to communicate to one another. Those signals we can collect and we can use those signals as a treatment as well.

I see. I see. And from a standpoint of impact, I think it's interesting to talk about how long some of these things can take and trying to understand when they're actually going to play a part in people's lives. Can you talk a little bit about where this research really started from its origins from a timeline perspective and where it is today?

Yeah, it's decades. It's decades of work. So if you were to follow Bernard's lab, it's I kind of came when he was just starting his lab in Ottawa, but he had been working for many years actually in Edmonton.

Wow.

On this research.

Passing the torch one trainee to the next.

Yes. And you know, it has taken many many years in Ottawa to get this therapy to clinical trials, too. It's a biological. So it's really difficult to first of all understand the safety and the efficacy involved and then to make sure that it can be transferred and safely administered to humans is a whole other area of expertise. So that's where the Ottawa Hospital has been really great because they have a huge team of different experts that can bring a therapy from the lab bench to the bedside and understanding what are the regulations that are involved in that process. How do you design the clinical trials? All of these areas have their own experts that can help and facilitate this and get the therapy to patients which is the ultimate goal.

Now presenting science on the street.

Hello.

How's it going?

Good. Good. How are you?

I'm good, thanks. What is that? I'm a neuroscientist. Just want to talk to people about science.

Fair enough. I'd love to. I love science. We got to catch a bus.

Okay.

What's the topic about?

I'm starting a podcast on science if you want to give it a scan. That's my website. It'll be out next month.

Are you at UBC?

Yeah.

Great.

Yeah.

What's your name?

Marissa.

I can see that.

There we go. Dr. Marissa Lithop.

Lithopoulos.

Lithopoulos.

Yeah.

Excellent. Well done.

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Looks like fun.

Thanks. See you.

Are you a scientist?

I am. I am a neuroscientist. I'm I do stem cell research. So I look at the brain stem cells.

Right.

There are over how many different species of sunflowers?

Sunflowers? Different types of species?

Yeah. Of sunflowers. How many different types of sunflowers are there?

Maybe like I don't know 200. I don't know. It's a fair guess. I thought it was 1. Like 50.

50. Right there.

You have such an interesting CV, if you will. You have the scientific aspect. We talked about the performative activities you did growing up and we know you have some music posted out on Spotify and some standup comedian shows that you've done. And I'm really curious how you take something like scientific research which you would think from the outside is very precise, very calculated and very accurate but it's also in this area of completely unknown. You don't know what it is. And I'm curious on your take on the artistic or creative side of your background and how you apply it to this field that could be perceived as somewhat, you know, rigorous and jaded at times.

Yeah, I think there are aspects of science that are of, that are of course, and they need to be rigorous, when it comes to actual experimental design, carrying out those experiments and being careful with your analysis. But there's also many times where you can be creative in how you approach a problem. When you are even analyzing, how you think about, how am I going to show evidence for support of my hypothesis? There are normally many ways to go about doing it. And so that is where maybe there's a gold standard in the field and maybe there isn't. And it's up to you as the scientist to kind of maneuver that and figure out, okay how can I show this? And maybe you will actually disprove your hypothesis and you were wrong, but if you were rigorous in the methods that's okay, it's just a new finding that you have to then figure out and keep going. And if you're on an area where it is new and no one has done it before, then more questions are going to naturally arise and keep going. And that's how you know you're in a good area because it'll keep pushing you forward. You'll say, "Oh, that's cool. Now, let me try this. Oh, why is that coming up?" And it'll keep going. And so I think although the scientific method has these sort of steps that we're used to, you observe the world, you make a hypothesis, you develop your experimental design to test that hypothesis.

There's no road map for how you go about doing that. Now, we can look to to the literature, see how other labs are doing it, but and we haven't really touched upon this between you and I on the podcast, there's a lot of challenges associated with how we publish science and communicate to one another. So, it's not necessarily a clear road map either to look to others.

Well, going back to accessibility and, you know, trying to bring these innovations to a wider audience, one thing that always comes to mind is word counts on a paper. And then you have all these various niches of research with their own lingo and their own specific terms trying to stay under the word count, which I'm sure really helps with comprehension.

Yeah, exactly. I always find word count pretty funny when it's a digital product.

Right? Yeah. No color. That's an extra $1,000.

Yeah, exactly. It's sort of what why would you do that? Now, that being said, don't go on and on and on to the point where no one wants to read something. But, certainly when people are trying to repeat your experiment, it's helpful when things are descriptive.

Yeah, I really like what you had to say about, you know, focusing on getting mentorship kind of outside the realm of the specific program you're in or stage of career you're in and how do you go about that? Have you been successful doing that? I think that mentorship can be hard to come by and I totally agree. It's super impactful and important to get that sounding board when you're doing big life decisions.

Yeah. And my philosophy is that you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall to the level of your systems. And that's from James Clear in Atomic Habits. And I think it works in life as it does in science. You need to set up the right systems for success and look for mentors that can help you do that. Academia can be great because it pairs you with a supervisor, but as we've heard in interviews, you know, just because someone's your supervisor doesn't mean that they're your mentor. And so that relationship is really important. And I would encourage students to also seek other mentors. You know, you're going to find a path that really inspires you and feels comfortable for you as you go along. You're not going to get it right every time with every person that you mentor. And there's a learning to happen there. It's a skill to build. And I feel like sometimes we forget that.

It's not something you just get taught.

Yeah.

You get taught all of these skills throughout your career very explicitly and then at some point in most professions you just happen to become in charge. In some capacity and are expected to have this toolkit developed out of thin air.

Yeah. Like somehow you'll figure it out.

It doesn't really make sense.

And yeah, you can try, but I think if you're more intentional with your mentorship and leadership, that's a better strategy. Having a philosophy in place, checking in with one another. I can't say that enough. The check-in. Like people want to be seen. And maybe you're having a bad day. Maybe it's a great day, but just slowing down. Hey Andrew, just want to check in with you today.

Right. Just creating that space.

Exactly.

Yeah. Something simple.

Exactly. And then we know how to move forward. So much miscommunication happens just because we can't get on the same page. And I think that it's a skill to be practiced.

It's not easy. And it really involves a lot of communication and mindfulness about who you're talking to and how you go about it. And I think that you're a great example of communication being at the forefront of the way you conduct yourself. You have your your live show Science, Stand-Up, & Song. We're here filming Beaker Banter and I really wanted to talk about why did you feel so strongly about making science communication a pillar of your identity?

Yes, this is something I ask myself actually quite often because it hasn't been a straightforward or easy journey to push these initiatives forward. Which might be surprising for some but academia is a difficult place to change. And we are terrible communicators. I'm saying that right now on camera. So it's been an uphill battle to try and say communication is important. I actually, you know, I've always done outreach. That is something that I think is really important. So, I was involved with Let's Talk Science as a grad student and then StemCellTalks, which is a combo of the Stem Cell Network and Let's Talk Science, teaching kids about stem cells. And then I really, I really saw the space that was needed, where science could be communicated not just effectively, which is important clear and effective communication, but also in a fun, creative, enjoyable way. You know, combine it with comedy, combine it with music. These are mediums that people are already accustomed to being a part of and connecting to. Why can't we communicate science through those mediums?

Yeah. Make it make it a fun time. Make it a fun experience.

Make it fun. Make it fun. We make science fun for kids. Why not for adults? That's true. It does kind of get cut off and becomes dry at that point or technically beyond.

Now we're just going to tell you facts. And why can't we also enjoy learning as adults? And that's where I really saw there was a space and I was a songwriter. I was writing these little songs and I thought why not try to write about my science, something I know very well. Yeah. And then when I did my first performance with my science songs, it was part of Science Slam and I really didn't know what to expect. I had never done that before. This is my comedy. I had never, at that point I actually wasn't doing stand-up comedy. I'd done improv but not stand-up. And so I really didn't know what that felt like. And I got in front of that stage and that audience just loved it. And that feeling was whoa.

Intoxicating.

Yeah. You can really like share a message, connect. I can have fun, the audience can have fun. And this is something I want to do. I want to keep doing.

Wow. Is there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn't cover today?

Well, I think we should talk about you a little bit because the audience is going to see you.

That's true. Probably.

So, this is a man who's been interviewing me for a few minutes now.

Yeah.

He's also my husband, my roommate, and we've been together for seven years now.

That's math.

Married for almost two of those years.

Yeah.

And I decided to really dive in to this whole science communication live show thing.

Two weeks before our wedding.

Two weeks before our wedding. Yes. Because I just ...

Why not plan another event?

Exactly.

Seems like a good time.

There's no good time. So, let me pick the worst time.

Yeah.

Was my thought process.

We're only going up from here.

Yeah, exactly. And you very graciously have been a part of this journey. You haven't missed a beat, which I really appreciate.

Just happy to be here.

You are also a STEM professional.

I am. Yes. I'm a mechatronics engineer and I build automation equipment.

Can you break that down?

Yeah. So, basically mechatronics is the synergy between mechanical, electrical, and controls engineering. So, you're going to have elements of mechanical design, whether it's mechanisms or full-blown pieces of machinery, and then the electrical component to drive the various sensing devices or motors associated with that equipment. And then the control side. How does it all come together and function from a sequential standpoint to produce a product, perform a process, or whatever you're looking to do with it?

Okay. So, it can be applied to many different areas.

It's a very broad thing. Yeah, it can be applied to a variety of disciplines and basically, you know, anything here in front of us was probably touched by some form of automation like these beakers we have, the equipment used to film the podcast, the clothes we're wearing, it's all touched some level of automation.

Yeah. And what made you want to go into engineering?

Yeah. I thought I was going to be an architect. So, I always love to draw when I was younger and I grew up in the country and my dad was always focused on building things ourselves. We'd always have a a joke, you know, we could build that DIY style. And we did many projects together. And when I was in high school, I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do. I was never a very like studious person. I love to be outdoors. You know hanging out with my friends or my brothers. You know water skiing or skateboarding, things like that. And I was in physics class and this is already at the point where I decided to be going down the architecture route.

Okay, so what grade?

This is this is a grade 11. So yeah, we had a rule in my house where you had to take one science class in grade 11. So I took biology. I was like that's got to be the easiest one because, let's take biology.

Come on, why would you think that?

I don't know. I'm not an avid reader. There's a lot of reading in biology and I was the worst at that one.

Yeah.

So, I didn't really enjoy that and I was like, "Okay, I think I want to do architecture." So, the following semester, I took physics.

Okay.

And in physics class in grade 11, we had this like project to basically, you know, build a device that you could throw an egg off of a building.

Yes.

A two-story building, and it could like survive that experience.

Right.

And instantly I had this idea on how I was going to make this thing from the years of building little models with my dad and you know playing around at home and building this device that would protect the egg. And I was like ah I don't want to draw it.

Yeah.

You know I want to be a part of the the making. I want to make it. I want to build it. I want to test it. I want to iterate. And that's really when I thought okay I think engineering is probably the route for me.

Yeah.

Which then required chemistry.

Right.

So I you know I ended up taking all the sciences despite my aversion to academia in my younger years and I went on to take mechanical engineering and eventually specialize in mechatronics with more of the automation and controls focus.

Yes. And from my understanding it was not a straightforward path in university.

No. No. As I mentioned, I was actually pretty torn about whether I should go to college or I should take the university route. And you know, similar to what you talked about with mentorship, I you know, I tried to seek out some advice.

Yeah.

And it was actually my mom that connected me with someone in our network that was an engineer locally and I spoke with him about it and I kind of expressed you know my desire to be a lot more hands-on with my work and I wasn't quote unquote like a student when it came to you know theoretical analysis and things like this. And this engineer really clearly put it to me just said go to university if you can figure it out you're going to do the exact same job and you're just going to make $20,000 more. And I I took their advice and it was a really tough road at the beginning because I didn't have that you know educational rigour to kind of back up the course load early on in engineering.

Yeah.

So I really struggled in my first couple of years

and I actually almost dropped out of the program. I almost failed.

Your systems were in place.

I had no systems in place and I had some friends that were just naturally good at the fundamentals of mathematics and things like this. And you know I specifically recall this one exam for physics where the entire course average was about a 50%. And I failed that exam and I studied best I could for it and a friend of mine didn't open the textbook until 3 days before the exam and got like a 58. So like over the bell curve. But it's just that difference between having that, you know, basic understanding.

Yeah.

And your systems, that's where you're going to fall to, right?

Yeah.

So I really really had to work hard and teach myself how to learn and and teach myself how to study.

Yeah.

And I eventually, you know, looking at those first two years, I would study like 60, 80 hours for a for a test and maybe a colleague would study half that. We'd get similar marks.

Yeah.

But as I went through the program, I started getting better and better marks and I really took the perspective towards school where like this is a toolkit. You know, it's not just some course in some grade.

Yeah.

I'm going to be expected to apply this stuff at some point in my career.

Mhm.

So, I did things like on tutorials, you know, I would I would take a lesser grade and and perhaps, you know, make sure I got that comprehension over, you know, perhaps copying an assignment or, you know, getting a little bit more extra help on that.

Yeah.

So, when it came time for the exam, I had that consistency and building that knowledge, but, you know, working on my system.

Yeah. Exactly. And it's so interesting because, you know, it sounds like it didn't come naturally.

No, I worked for it. Yeah.

Now, there's conflicting advice on this, I feel, right? Where some people kind of say you should go where you naturally kind of have this talent or something along those lines. And I also, I can appreciate that line of thinking where yeah, it is nice if you could just kind of be in a space and it clicks and yes.

Yeah.

And there's totally people where you see that happen and it's like, yes, I understand you belong in this space. But if you're in a space and maybe it doesn't click right away, I don't think that should necessarily be a deterrent.

No.

Off the bat.

I definitely agree with that. And I think that in terms of you know my experience and it not really clicking right away, it didn't change the fact that I still had that genuine curiosity for this topic.

Yeah.

And you know a career path like engineering is just academically heavy at the beginning.

Yeah.

And every single course, every single year you go through that initial training period, you just really like broaden that scope of the possibilities and the different niches that you can get involved in.

Yeah.

And that's really the perspective you need to take is that, you know, every day I learn 10 times more things I have no clue about than the day before. And it's just supposed to give you that taste of where you might want to dig in and learn more about it.

I'm glad you said curiosity because I feel like there are elements that you can kind of break down in that where it's you're a curious person. You like to build things and create things and understand how they work. And these are kind of skills and interests that could be applied to different areas. But I think that people can kind of if they get curious about themselves and understand like I love music, right? Okay. Why do I love music? Oh, it's because I get to create things. And they can start to see the fundamental elements that they enjoy. That maybe they need to work at, but they still really like it. And that can help direct them along a path. It doesn't necessarily like you said have to be to go into architecture, right?

Exactly.

It can be applied to different things, but the fundamentals are you like building things. You like to be able to understand how it works and basically make something in the real world.

Yeah.

That can help.

And there's so many different ways you can go with it. And kind of going back to that curiosity, there's a little bit of exposure. You don't know what you don't know. And if you don't try these different areas and say, "Oh, I hate statistics."

Yeah.

I hate doing free body diagrams.

Who would say that?

Or, you know, I don't want to work in civil engineering because nothing ever moves or at least not quickly enough for me to see it with my own eyes.

Yeah.

Things moving around. But you need to get exposed and try different things and figure out what clicks for you. And even when you get that click from a passion perspective, there's always going to be an element of hard work and learning associated with it.

Yeah. I always think, you know, you have to think about what's the worst part of this job.

Yeah. Exactly.

What is the worst part? And am I going to still be saying as an example, oh, like I really don't like cleaning the beakers, but I'm doing science.

Yeah.

You know, it's that but I'm doing this.

Yeah. And we should, you know, encourage, going back to mentorship, encourage those who we are mentoring to find that. And if they tell you, I want to be an engineer. I want to be a scientist. It's not up to us to tell them they can't do that.

Yeah. Go try.

Go try.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My first year I failed two classes, I think. And I remember going back to the profs asking them, I was going to like drop out of engineering altogether because I was already like ooh this is too much for me. And I went to one of the classes and they just like marked my exam wrong and I ended up getting like a you know sufficient grade to pass and continue.

Wow.

But I was like if I didn't go to that prof's office and just poke at what I actually ended up you know getting on my exam. I might have done something completely different with my life.

Here's another lesson for the kids out there. Always follow up.

Yeah. Yeah.

Always follow up. I was one of those annoying students that wanted to understand why I got something wrong.

No is far from the end of the world. Yeah. So I would always go to my TAs, go to my profs and like I don't just say I don't understand this or why. Can we go through this together because I want to learn and and improve. And I think having that kind of attitude is really going to get you far. It's okay to not do well at the first thing. One of my favourite, favourite classes was actually a philosophy class where you had to write basically you wrote an essay on the reading that we did each week.

Mhm.

And you could you had the choice to submit your essay or not. If you submitted it, it got graded and our prof would take the two best essays that you wrote. So, you know, the first essay that I wrote got a C. Okay. Whoa.

Yeah.

Work needs to be done here. But by the end, Yeah. A's, A+'s.

Yeah.

Every week I would write one and get better and better and better. And I love that he gave that opportunity for us.

To try again. Yeah.

To try again. Yeah.

Yeah. You don't know where it's going to go. You don't know where it's.

You don't know. You don't know. So I think.

And getting comfortable with that like area of failure.

Yeah.

And perseverance and not seeing it as like the end of the road.

Yeah. And just so we say this, grades aren't everything.

They aren't.

They really aren't everything.

They really aren't.

And like you'll get far enough into your career where you won't even look at them.

As soon as you leave the classroom, you have to deal with friction and gravity.

Yeah. There we go. So there we go. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

There's no linear approach to solving a problem. There's a thousand approaches. They all have pros and cons.

And that's where creativity comes in.

Yeah, creativity, yeah.

Thinking outside the box and yeah, it's something that we don't emphasize enough, I think, when it comes to science, engineering, math, is that it's not straightforward.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

That's our show. Thank you so much for tuning in to Beaker Banter. Remember to like and subscribe for the latest updates. We can't wait to bring you the next episode. Until next time, dream big, love fiercely, laugh often, and sparkle.

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