Episode 1: Nanoparticles to the Rescue!

Beaker Banter – “Nanoparticles to the Rescue!”

© 2026 Result Entertainment Inc. All Rights Reserved

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UBC is really like the epicenter of

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lipid nanoparticle technology which

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people here still don't even realize. 

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which is like yeah I mean I think this

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is a very just like scientists

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are humble and like not trying to toot

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their own horn but yeah for 50 years

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like Peter Cullis has been doing this

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he's been involved with like six

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FDA approved drugs, and yeah I was like

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at a conference last year and 

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Mike Houghton, who's like a Canadian Nobel

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Prize winner, described Vancouver as like

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the Silicon Valley of lipid nanoparticle

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technology and I was like

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that's spot on that really what it is

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like.

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Hello everyone and welcome to "Beaker Banter"!

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This is the very first episode

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we have Dr. Anna Blakney.

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She is an Assistant Professor at the

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Michael Smith Laboratories in the School

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of Biomedical Engineering at the

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University of British Columbia. We talk

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about lipid nanoparticles and their

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applications in the mRNA vaccine

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as well as next generation vaccines

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using self-amplifying mRNA. We also

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discuss why Instagram is pretty

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terrible. So, tune in to learn more.

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Thank you to our partner Innovation UBC

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for your wonderful support.

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So join us as we laugh and

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learn. On "Beaker Banter"

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it's our turn.

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Amy Poehler for the win, I say.

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I know. Me too. [laughter] Me too.

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Do you listen to her show?

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Yeah, she's good.

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Yeah,

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she was meant to to be a host

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for sure. And also like she's creative

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in the way that she like does it. It's

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very like positive vibes, but the people

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she brings on, I'm like, you are not

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just doing whoever's releasing a new

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movie and I appreciate that. It's true.

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Yeah. She was like, Ina Garten, I love

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her. Like, let's get her on, you know?

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Like, yeah. Yeah. Cool people, you know.

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Yeah. She's awesome. She has such a good

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energy, which I guess is like a lot of

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it.

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I love Amy Poehler.

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Yeah.

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I was trying to think of like, oh, how

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would I describe this podcast? I'm like,

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yeah, “Good Hang” meets like some sort of

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sciency one, you know?

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Yeah. Yeah. What's a good science

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podcast?

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“Good Hang” meets science. Exactly.

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The field of science.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. So I am...

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I don't listen to very many science

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podcast though.

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I tried.

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What are like?...

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“Science Verse”? Is it “Science Verse”? I

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think it's called right.

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So they really do like their dive into

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that specific topic every

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episode. I don't think I've ever

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listened to it though. [laughter]

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But you know what? Part of my problem is

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like I have very poor like cognition

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when I listen to things. I cannot take

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things in. So if I'm just trying to

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listen to it, I cannot learn. So it's

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kind of pointless to listen to things

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where I'm like actually trying to learn.

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Well, I'm reading um Adam Grant's book,

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"Hidden Potential".

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I haven't listened to it or read it.

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Yeah. He's talking about how, you know,

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we all have like a learning style that

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we're the most comfortable with, right?

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But sometimes if you actually learn

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outside of that style, it's when you can

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retain more.

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Oh god, but I retain nothing.

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It's more challenge. [laughter] I know.

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I know. He's like, so yeah, that's like

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interesting. Well, maybe I should try.

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It's probably some like neuroplasticity.

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It's like something like your brain it

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needs to work harder to do it so it

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retains it more or something like that.

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I was like, oh. But I think about this

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even so like frequently how this affects

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me is if like one of my students is in

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my office and they're like here's the

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experiment I did. I'm like what? Like

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just put it on a slide. Like I need to

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see the details. Right. I have no idea

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what you're talking about unless it's

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written down.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Like I cannot comprehend all the

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details.

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[laughter]

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You did what?

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It's like what? It's probably something

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we've talked about like the week before.

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[laughter]

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So I don't know. But that being said, it

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like it really impacts me. I cannot

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listen to listen and learn.

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You need the visual.

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Yeah, I need the visual.

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Yeah.

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Am I allowed to start drinking this? Is

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just gonna you could you

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could start. We're we're rolling,

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as they say. [laughter] 

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Good.

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Yeah. Yeah. Some shows...

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Coasters are on brand. [laughter]

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Exactly. We still have to think about a

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logo for "Beaker Banter". We haven't

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figured that all out, but...

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There's probably some fun things you can

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do there. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's

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funny because I told my dad the name of

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the show and he was like, "Don't call it

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that."

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Why?

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Like "Beakers are boring." [laughter]

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"People aren't going to like that."

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"Science is boring." I'm like, "But what?"

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But they need to know like somewhat what

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they're getting into, right?

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Yeah. [laughter]

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Huh. Yeah. Well, yeah. I like it

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actually. I think it has like a nice

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ring to it. Thank you. Yeah. [laughter]

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Appreciate it. And people, and like the

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banter is important too, right? Because

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it like sets the vibe of the show.

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Yes, it's supposed to be fun and you

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know

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there's a lot of science communication

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podcast and I appreciate that work and I

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think it's important work for sure,

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but I also think we need to just sort of

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have fun with

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in the space of science and people need

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to see it as not just like this rigorous

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discipline, and you know textbooks, and...

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Yeah. Like exactly. Bring the fun to it.

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I I'm trying to think too. I know. 

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It's not like a science podcast, but the

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nerdiest podcast I listen to is

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"Acquired". Do you ever listen to that?

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No.

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It's more like a business type podcast

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and they do a deep dive on a specific

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business, but again, they're like four

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hours long. They only release one a

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month. They do like a really crazy deep

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dive on it and it's like

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things I would never be interested in

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like learning about necessarily. Like

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they've done episodes on like Hermes,

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the NFL, things where I'm like, I

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patently don't care about that business

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history, but it's so interesting the way

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they do it. And again, it's like four

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hours long and people really listen. So,

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I think if you like have the right

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energy and you find the right audience,

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like

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yeah,

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it works.

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I think it's key, right? Because you

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can't please everyone.

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You want a wide reach and you want to

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welcome everyone, but ultimately there's

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going to be sort of a fit for what

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you're delivering.

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Correct. Yeah.

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And so it's sort of like finding that

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sweet spot of this is what I want to

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talk about. This is what I'm excited

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about and this is what, you know, I think

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an audience can get excited about too.

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Well, and they've been... I mean they're

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big now, but they've been doing it for

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like I think almost 15 years and it was

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not super big to begin with. They had

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other jobs at first and they just like

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built it over time and now so I think

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they kind of taught people to love their

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podcast.

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That's that's a strategy too,

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right?[laughter]

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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It's sort of like this is what we want

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to do.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Because it's interesting like I feel

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like in business a lot of the time it's

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sort of like, find out what people

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want and do that,

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cater your product to that to

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that.

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And I think there's a balance there.

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It's also what are your particular

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aptitudes and skills and passions that

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you want to bring and maybe you're a

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little bit ahead of the curve.

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Exactly. And then does it hit at the

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right time.

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Exactly. It doesn't quite hit but if you

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keep going keep doing it 

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eventually I think you do start finding

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people that really want that.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. I find with the show "Science, Stand-up

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and Song", it's been sort of like that

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slow burn where it's like we've been

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growing not like exponentially crazy but

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we have been growing

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and we get those super fans.

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Mhm. Oh, that's so fun though. You're

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like, "Oh, there are people that like

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really care about this." [laughter]

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Exactly. Right. The same way I do show "I

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want to come. Like I'm telling all my

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friends about it."

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That's so sweet. But that is how like

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real momentum builds, right? is like you

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need a base of people.

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Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's like

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genuine interest in it. And that's why

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like I find social media like a very

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difficult medium

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to handle.

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Oh. Because it's so disingenuine and

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like flippant and

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Yes. Yes. Like a live show, if I'm on a

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stage, I know how the audience is

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receiving what I'm saying instantly.

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And I can adapt. I can change things up,

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you know, to get a reaction.

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Yeap.

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Social media, it's like, you can spend

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hours on a post and then like five

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people like it.

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Yeah. It's just like quantity

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and you're just like quantity basically.

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What did I do with my life? [laughter]

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Yeah. And you have no control over it

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too, right? I mean like when you're

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building your shows like you know where

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you're advertising, you kind of roughly

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know like the age groups that are coming

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to these things and like the audience

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theoretically it appeals to, right? But

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on social media that that decision is

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00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:02,720

completely out of your control, right?

275

00:08:59,839 --> 00:09:04,399

It's like whatever the algorithm thinks,

276

00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,399

whoever they think is going to watch it

277

00:09:04,399 --> 00:09:06,880

and it may differ from like video to

278

00:09:06,399 --> 00:09:09,120

video.

279

00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:11,360

Yeah. And what you put in that video

280

00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,040

will tell the algorithm certain things

281

00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,480

to show it to certain people. Right. So,

282

00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,320

the other day, I don't know if you've

283

00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,760

seen it in in the Michael Smith Labs,

284

00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,120

but when when you're sitting on the

285

00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,560

third floor library and you look across,

286

00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,040

someone has a little stuffy in the

287

00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:23,760

window.

288

00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,040

Oh, so cute.

289

00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,600

And they have a little name. They say

290

00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,040

Jean-Claude. [laughter]

291

00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,160

And I'm in the library the other day and

292

00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,279

I was like, "Oh, okay. I'll take a

293

00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,600

little video." And I zoom in on

294

00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:35,680

Jean-Claude and I just said like, "Met

295

00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:39,279

Jean-Claude today." [laughter]

296

00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:41,519

And for the first time ever, my real got

297

00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:44,000

shown to people in France.

298

00:09:41,519 --> 00:09:45,760

Oh. They were like, "Oh, Jean-Claude,

299

00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,720

these people will understand what

300

00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:47,760

she's saying."

301

00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:48,800

Exactly. [laughter]

302

00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,800

I couldn't believe it. I was like,

303

00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,320

"Okay, it's

304

00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,959

picking up on those things, those

305

00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,640

details."

306

00:09:52,959 --> 00:09:57,600

Yeah. Well, maybe you can build like a

307

00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,519

big base in French by just having like a

308

00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,440

French name in each video.

309

00:09:59,519 --> 00:10:02,959

That's the key, right? We'll just name

310

00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,226

all these things.

311

00:10:02,959 --> 00:10:05,519

Each cell will have a little name.

312

00:10:05,226 --> 00:10:07,440

[laughter]

313

00:10:05,519 --> 00:10:08,640

You need to translate "Beaker Banter" into

314

00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,080

French and then

315

00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,000

or other languages.

316

00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:14,000

Yeah. We're at the beginning. Your reel

317

00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,600

is just "Beaker Banter" in like,

318

00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,680

different languages and then you're like

319

00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,640

really getting global spread. [laughter]

320

00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:22,560

That's amazing.

321

00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,720

We took a bunch of shots of like, you

322

00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:27,360

know, the beakers themselves.

323

00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,160

These are bought just for the show. And...

324

00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,000

Thank you for that.

325

00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,640

Yeah. [laughter]

326

00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:34,800

You know, let's just have that shot.

327

00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,640

"Beaker Banter" in different languages.

328

00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,240

I can see it. Some fun music.

329

00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,600

Yeah. Yeah, that would be really fun.

330

00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,120

But then it's like then it's I don't

331

00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,519

know. you kind of like create the vibe

332

00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,120

of like it's in the same way that like

333

00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:46,320

science is supposed to be kind of a

334

00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,040

universal language, right?

335

00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,600

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what

336

00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:54,640

we really want to strive for is trying

337

00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,800

to bring people into these conversations

338

00:10:54,640 --> 00:11:00,000

so that they know what are the

339

00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,600

innovative things happening in science.

340

00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,519

It's not just all of a sudden like

341

00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,560

surprise there's this therapy that's

342

00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:07,839

been worked on for 50 years and and here

343

00:11:06,560 --> 00:11:09,279

here it's ready for you.

344

00:11:07,839 --> 00:11:11,279

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. like what's happening

345

00:11:09,279 --> 00:11:13,120

now. And there are kind of "Between Two

346

00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:14,320

Ferns" vibes.

347

00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,839

I figured it was allowed.

348

00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:19,519

It's like Amy Poehler "Between Two Ferns"

349

00:11:17,839 --> 00:11:22,720

and like some sort of science.

350

00:11:19,519 --> 00:11:25,200

Well, Zach Galifianakis, he's a fellow Greek and I

351

00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,440

feel like it was a allowed. [laughter] 

352

00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,760

I have an olive tree behind me, you know.

353

00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:28,560

I think...

354

00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,680

For full effect.

355

00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:32,320

It's appropriate. [laughter]

356

00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:32,800

In case we need any oil for any point in

357

00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,272

the show.

358

00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:38,160

Exactly. Exactly. I feel like, yeah.

359

00:11:36,272 --> 00:11:40,000

[laughter]

360

00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,878

Taking some of my favourites and

361

00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,878

incorporating them. [laughter]

362

00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:47,600

Great. I wonder what other like Easter

363

00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,839

eggs I can find. [laughter]

364

00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,959

Exactly.

365

00:11:49,839 --> 00:11:52,880

Yeah.

366

00:11:50,959 --> 00:11:56,000

That's hilarious.

367

00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:58,320

But, you know, I like to say science

368

00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,320

saves lives, but only if we can

369

00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,399

communicate it.

370

00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:06,399

Because we can do really cool things at

371

00:12:02,399 --> 00:12:07,920

the bench. And if we can't get that

372

00:12:06,399 --> 00:12:10,639

message out, whether it's through a

373

00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:13,360

paper, at a conference, in a talk, we

374

00:12:10,639 --> 00:12:16,079

can't get it outside, it's going to stay

375

00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:19,519

in the dish essentially.

376

00:12:16,079 --> 00:12:22,880

So, I think having more platforms where

377

00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:26,639

people can at least learn a thing or two

378

00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:27,519

and then also see awesome scientists is

379

00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:29,328

really important.

380

00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:29,360

Yeah, I mean, I totally agree.

381

00:12:29,328 --> 00:12:30,959

[laughter]

382

00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,200

Yeah.

383

00:12:30,959 --> 00:12:34,720

You know, I did a lot of research for the

384

00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,680

pod and I was watching a lot of your

385

00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,040

videos.

386

00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:38,320

Nice. Yeah, it's a good way to get to

387

00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,808

know me. Probably know everything you

388

00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,828

need to know about my life now.

389

00:12:39,808 --> 00:12:41,828

[laughter]

390

00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:47,680

And, you probably know this, your most

391

00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,720

viewed video on TikTok.

392

00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,720

You know what it is?

393

00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,959

Yeah, it's like similarly like the most

394

00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,120

garbage video I've probably ever made.

395

00:12:52,959 --> 00:12:57,200

But I think that's how it tends to go.

396

00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,440

Yeah, that's a funny story actually because

397

00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:02,160

I was like still pretty early on in my

398

00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:05,040

TikTok and I was still living in London

399

00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:08,399

at the time and we were about to go into

400

00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,920

like another lockdown. So like there,

401

00:13:08,399 --> 00:13:12,079

you know, London there's like not much

402

00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,440

to do when you can't go to like a pub or

403

00:13:12,079 --> 00:13:15,839

like a show or something like

404

00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:19,360

that. It's actually kind of a concrete

405

00:13:15,839 --> 00:13:20,880

jungle jail situation. But so it was the

406

00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,639

last night before lockdown. I was

407

00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,560

actually going to get a massage and go

408

00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:26,079

to dinner. Great night. And I was like,

409

00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:27,600

I'm just going to make this video really

410

00:13:26,079 --> 00:13:29,120

quickly. And I had seen the trend going

411

00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:31,120

around of

412

00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:33,040

like that sound like, "Oh, no, no, no."

413

00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,880

But then also, it's like failures,

414

00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,040

right? The examples I had seen was like

415

00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,600

a kid just biffing it down a water slide

416

00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,959

or like a horse failing to jump over a

417

00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,320

fence and you're just like, uh, I don't

418

00:13:40,959 --> 00:13:45,120

really want to watch this, but like I

419

00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:47,200

will. I was like, what's the most like

420

00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,800

relatable thing for a COVID vaccine

421

00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,959

right now? So this was before the

422

00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,480

vaccines were available and I think

423

00:13:50,959 --> 00:13:54,720

still in the time when everybody was

424

00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,240

like excited about them like there was a

425

00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,720

lot of hype like oh where are the

426

00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,160

vaccines right and I was like what if

427

00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:03,279

you were like going to get your vaccine

428

00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,720

and it just like knocked over. [laughter]

429

00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:05,760

And then you're like...

430

00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,600

Which is also so

431

00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,519

unrealistic. Also, the vaccine in this

432

00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,920

case is a vial of water with like a

433

00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:14,079

printed label that just says COVID 19

434

00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:16,240

vaccine. And it's just a slow-mo video

435

00:14:14,079 --> 00:14:18,639

of that falling over. And it's like

436

00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,760

really like this has seen like millions

437

00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:21,600

of views.

438

00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,720

It's like over six million

439

00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,199

people.

440

00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,959

So I like, posted that. I went to

441

00:14:25,199 --> 00:14:29,120

get my massage and I had never been on

442

00:14:26,959 --> 00:14:30,880

like the receiving end of a viral video

443

00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:33,839

before and kind of like how overwhelming

444

00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:35,680

that is, right? But I had come out and I

445

00:14:33,839 --> 00:14:37,760

was like, I have so many notifications

446

00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:39,760

on TikTok and I like refreshed it and it

447

00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,360

was like instantly back up to like 99

448

00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,320

plus, you know, when it just like maxes

449

00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:46,079

out. And I was like, this is wild. And

450

00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,760

it just kept like growing and growing.

451

00:14:46,079 --> 00:14:49,680

And so we were sitting at dinner on our

452

00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,760

like last night out in the wild just

453

00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,079

like refreshing my TikTok [laughter]

454

00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:56,240

being like, why are so many people

455

00:14:54,079 --> 00:14:58,320

watching this?

456

00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,240

Yeah. [laughter]

457

00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,360

It's sometimes the ones that you're just

458

00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,440

like, "Yeah, I'm just going to throw

459

00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:06,560

this together." And...

460

00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,560

But that's an example of like there's

461

00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,959

I think it's was relatable at the time

462

00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,480

in some ways where it's like

463

00:15:10,959 --> 00:15:15,680

yeah, there was a lot of anticipation

464

00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:18,240

for vaccines still then. And

465

00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:20,399

it's also just a perfect example of like

466

00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:23,279

catching a trend at a right time, right?

467

00:15:20,399 --> 00:15:24,639

Which is actually how you manipulate the

468

00:15:23,279 --> 00:15:25,360

algorithm if you really want to get your

469

00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:27,760

things out there.

470

00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,760

Yeah, totally. Totally. The right

471

00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,079

soundtrack for it,

472

00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:33,120

you know, that whole the concept of the

473

00:15:32,079 --> 00:15:35,199

failure.

474

00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,440

Yeah. And just like a super... It's like a,

475

00:15:35,199 --> 00:15:38,880

I don't know, 4 second long video. It's

476

00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,000

something ridiculously short. Yeah.

477

00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,920

Yeah. Exactly. 

478

00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:45,680

Well, that's sort of the conundrum I'm

479

00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:47,795

in because you see people's views,

480

00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,040

right? How long they watch your videos.

481

00:15:47,795 --> 00:15:51,199

[laughter]

482

00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,839

It's like 3 seconds, 5 seconds, you know

483

00:15:51,199 --> 00:15:53,600

what I mean?

484

00:15:51,839 --> 00:15:55,600

But I don't think it's you. I think

485

00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,920

that is just like people's attention

486

00:15:55,600 --> 00:16:01,040

time now, which is like I don't know

487

00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:02,720

kind of a the reason why I mean I think

488

00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,880

most people have like a love-hate

489

00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,480

relationship with all of social media,

490

00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,160

right? Like it's just like a poison to

491

00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,199

your brain. You have no attention span

492

00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,759

anymore.

493

00:16:09,199 --> 00:16:13,519

Exactly. The other day, there was

494

00:16:11,759 --> 00:16:15,440

someone sitting in front of me on the

495

00:16:13,519 --> 00:16:17,360

bus and the way she was sitting was not

496

00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:20,240

like in the chair properly. It was like

497

00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:22,079

on the side so I could just see how she

498

00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,160

was using Instagram.

499

00:16:22,079 --> 00:16:24,480

And I was just watching her just swipe.

500

00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:25,120

Yes.

501

00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,959

Swipe.

502

00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:31,600

It's literally like a like complete

503

00:16:28,959 --> 00:16:34,000

dissociation like

504

00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,880

dopamine hit. Dopamine hit. Dopamine

505

00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,720

hit. And it's Yeah, it really does feel

506

00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,240

similarly like you're watching like a

507

00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,920

drug user just zone out.

508

00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,000

It does feel that way. I was like

509

00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:46,160

And I feel that way. Like the craziest I

510

00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,056

ever feel is when I'm watching a TV show

511

00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,160

and like swiping on social media.

512

00:16:48,056 --> 00:16:52,160

I'm like I'm not I'm not

513

00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,360

paying attention to anything right now.

514

00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,600

Yeah. What is my brain doing?[laughter]

515

00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,079

Yeah. Like what do I need? [laughter]

516

00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,320

Yeah. Exactly. Right. So like timers

517

00:16:58,079 --> 00:17:02,240

have been really key for me. Also

518

00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,680

keeping my phone in black and white.

519

00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,959

Oh interesting. And then you're like,

520

00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,839

"Oh, so boring."

521

00:17:04,959 --> 00:17:08,720

Exactly. [laughter]

522

00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:10,880

There's data on it now, that's a

523

00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,799

good way. your brain just doesn't want

524

00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,959

to partake because it's bored.

525

00:17:12,799 --> 00:17:17,520

Interesting. So, about a month and a

526

00:17:14,959 --> 00:17:19,679

half ago, I actually read a book while

527

00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,760

we were like in Costa Rica over the

528

00:17:19,679 --> 00:17:22,559

break called "Digital Minimalism". Have

529

00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,439

you heard of this?

530

00:17:22,559 --> 00:17:25,919

I haven't heard of it.

531

00:17:23,439 --> 00:17:27,120

Yeah. Well, so kind of the school of

532

00:17:25,919 --> 00:17:28,480

thought is like you should be really

533

00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:30,400

intentional about the way you're using

534

00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,919

technology. And I was like, okay, at the

535

00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,252

peak of my craziness while scrolling

536

00:17:31,919 --> 00:17:34,640

Instagram, watching a television

537

00:17:33,252 --> 00:17:37,280

show, and then not retaining

538

00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,280

any of this, I am not being intentional

539

00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,360

about how I'm using my time. And so it's

540

00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:42,799

kind of like, just think about the

541

00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,559

relationship you want to have with

542

00:17:42,799 --> 00:17:46,480

technology and then like program that

543

00:17:44,559 --> 00:17:48,400

into your life. And so because of that

544

00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,080

now I have like rules that I've been

545

00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,840

doing for a month and a half. I took all

546

00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,600

social media off my phone except for TikTok

547

00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:55,120

which is like work for me. But I

548

00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,600

actually never scroll it.

549

00:17:55,120 --> 00:17:58,480

Oh wow.

550

00:17:55,600 --> 00:18:00,880

And when I'm at home I leave my phone in

551

00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,559

a different room. I think that's key.

552

00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:04,799

And I feel like I for the first time

553

00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:08,240

have like a healthy boundary with like

554

00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:10,320

dopamine hits and just like having a

555

00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,320

life, right? I was like if I had to

556

00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,720

choose for myself if I'm going to scroll

557

00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:17,280

Instagram for like an hour right now or

558

00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:19,360

if I'm going to like call a friend, draw

559

00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,360

something. I have a like a

560

00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:22,880

backup list of hobbies in case I like

561

00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:24,480

get really desperate and I'm like I need

562

00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,160

something to do and I feel like I'm

563

00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,080

about to crack. But I'm like choose

564

00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:30,000

something from the list. It will make

565

00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,080

you feel so much better than just like

566

00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,840

mindlessly scrolling which is just the

567

00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,480

easy it's just the easy solution to

568

00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,120

everything

569

00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:40,640

Right like your brain wants something

570

00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:42,480

and if you were to take maybe even three

571

00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,160

breaths you might not do it.

572

00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:48,080

Correct yeah, yeah.

573

00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:51,120

So I've I've tried to do that, I do

574

00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:53,120

not like the dual authentication

575

00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,039

system that we have for a lot of logging

576

00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:56,799

in because then I have to bring out my

577

00:18:55,039 --> 00:18:58,480

phone okay and then something distracts

578

00:18:56,799 --> 00:19:00,880

me and and then I get into it and then

579

00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,440

I'm like watching reals and 30 minutes

580

00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:02,960

later.

581

00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,360

Yeah. But this is why I had to take it

582

00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,559

off my phone because it's like, it cannot

583

00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:07,840

be accessible on my phone.

584

00:19:06,559 --> 00:19:08,320

It can't be. That's, yeah, it's a good

585

00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:09,919

strategy.

586

00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,600

Because the, like, kind of the suggestion I

587

00:19:09,919 --> 00:19:13,760

I think what many people find is

588

00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,240

like you can also use this in a browser

589

00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,320

and it's much less enticing and

590

00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,840

addictive when it's in a browser. You

591

00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,440

can still check things, you can see

592

00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,799

messages, you can respond to people and

593

00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,559

maintain a relationship, but you don't

594

00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:26,640

abuse it in the same way.

595

00:19:24,559 --> 00:19:28,320

It's not on you, like part of you.

596

00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,080

Yeah. Yeah. So, that for me has been

597

00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:31,360

like freeing. It's been like... Actually

598

00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,280

it's probably been almost two months

599

00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,440

now. I just have not been on Instagram.

600

00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,799

Congratulations. That is... [laughter]

601

00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,400

How many days does it take to form a

602

00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:38,799

habit? You're getting close to it, I

603

00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,559

think.

604

00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:42,480

Yeah. Honestly, after the first three

605

00:19:40,559 --> 00:19:44,400

days, I didn't actively think about it

606

00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,919

anymore because like, you know, everybody

607

00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,240

has this feeling, right, when you're

608

00:19:45,919 --> 00:19:50,640

like, well, if you're truly addicted to

609

00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:54,320

social media, like I think I probably am

610

00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:57,200

or was. Which is like, you put your

611

00:19:54,320 --> 00:20:00,400

phone down and you get this urge to pick

612

00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:02,000

it back up immediately just to like look

613

00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,640

at it and then you're like what am I

614

00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:07,600

looking at probably social media

615

00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:11,120

and so like after the first three days I

616

00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:14,480

felt that go away more like I felt lost

617

00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:17,520

at first I was like what do what do I do

618

00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,480

with this blank space of time now

619

00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,000

right?

620

00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,640

But yeah I guess that also indicates how

621

00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,120

bad it is.

622

00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,799

You can get so time back in your life. One

623

00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:26,320

strategy I tried was to have

624

00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:28,559

Duolingo.

625

00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,480

And so like if I needed just like an app

626

00:20:28,559 --> 00:20:32,960

to open, I would learn a language.

627

00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,559

Oh, you had to do your... Yeah, yeah.

628

00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,840

Huh. That's an interesting way of doing

629

00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:39,760

it. Did it work?

630

00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:42,240

I mean, I think it was it was helpful.

631

00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:44,400

I have a few languages that I'm trying

632

00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,824

to learn. I'm learning Greek

633

00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,240

as one of them. Difficult

634

00:20:45,824 --> 00:20:50,480

language when you don't... When

635

00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:52,880

you're not used to it. Although I am

636

00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,720

Greek, I didn't grow up.

637

00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,840

Yeah. Wasn't downloaded into your brain

638

00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,559

based off of genetics.

639

00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,880

Exactly.

640

00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:02,880

I wish. But Duolingo, for some reason,

641

00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:06,159

for some reason, it'll just give me

642

00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,200

sentences like "Anna and Nick are smoking

643

00:21:06,159 --> 00:21:08,880

a cigarette." [laughter]

644

00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,919

You're like, "I do need to say this to my

645

00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:13,334

Greek relatives."

646

00:21:09,919 --> 00:21:15,039

"The architect is smoking a cigarette."

647

00:21:13,334 --> 00:21:16,640

[laughter]

648

00:21:15,039 --> 00:21:18,799

"Nick and the cigarette." Like, this is

649

00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:20,960

what Duolingo will give me. [laughter]

650

00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:23,200

It's like this lady, she's always

651

00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,840

hanging out at comedy clubs. We know she

652

00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,679

loves cigarettes. Like, teach her the

653

00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,000

vocabulary she wants.

654

00:21:27,679 --> 00:21:33,039

Exactly. I don't understand. So, I kind

655

00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,919

of gave it a bit of a break. I don't know if I was learning bad things

656

00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:36,320

or not.

657

00:21:33,919 --> 00:21:37,120

That's so funny. Well, maybe you'll find

658

00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,640

it useful.

659

00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:41,039

Yeah,

660

00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,840

Honestly, it probably will be 

661

00:21:41,039 --> 00:21:43,200

my life.[laughter]

662

00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,559

You're like, "Wait, wait a minute. Do

663

00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,240

you need to ask for a cigarette? Because

664

00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:48,080

that is what I know how to do here."

665

00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:48,480

Exactly. "Everyone, I can do

666

00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,080

this."

667

00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,480

"You seem stressed."

668

00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,559

Exactly. Exactly. But yeah, I think the

669

00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,240

black and white and then the timer, and like

670

00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:58,559

you said, putting in a different room.

671

00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:00,320

Yeah. I did have a timer for a long time

672

00:21:58,559 --> 00:22:01,600

on all these apps and it's like it's

673

00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,679

just so easy to override. I'm like,

674

00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,559

"Yeah, it's been 15 minutes. Let me back

675

00:22:03,679 --> 00:22:07,440

in." [laughter]

676

00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:09,280

Yeah. The problem I have is like if I'm

677

00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,679

trying to post something

678

00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,679

Yeah.

679

00:22:09,679 --> 00:22:14,159

and then the timer comes on and

680

00:22:11,679 --> 00:22:15,679

interrupts the actual post I'm trying to

681

00:22:14,159 --> 00:22:17,760

get through. It's different if it's like

682

00:22:15,679 --> 00:22:19,679

you're doing it professionally. But then

683

00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,360

I also think maybe I don't know. I

684

00:22:19,679 --> 00:22:23,679

actually like never post on Instagram on

685

00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:25,120

a desktop. But like, maybe that's a good

686

00:22:23,679 --> 00:22:26,400

option. It's just a different

687

00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:28,559

relationship to the app.

688

00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,480

You just can't do stories on desktop.

689

00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:32,480

Oh, interesting. Okay. So yeah, you're

690

00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,880

beholden. This is it's same with TikTok

691

00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:36,240

for me. But TikTok I like is

692

00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,200

So you don't scroll when

693

00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:37,760

I never scroll.

694

00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:38,960

Huh.

695

00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,200

Yeah, that's amazing.

696

00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:44,000

Oh, I have scrolled.

697

00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:46,320

I've had like many hours of scrolling

698

00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,440

historically, but it just like that to

699

00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:52,559

me was like the one where it feels like

700

00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:55,679

the most like

701

00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:58,080

so addicted to it because you can really

702

00:22:55,679 --> 00:22:59,919

lose many hours. I've for sure have

703

00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,919

times before like looked up and like two

704

00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:03,679

hours have gone by and I'm like could I

705

00:23:01,919 --> 00:23:05,919

tell you any of the videos I just

706

00:23:03,679 --> 00:23:08,480

watched? Like probably not, right? And

707

00:23:05,919 --> 00:23:11,520

so, that to me it's like the algorithm

708

00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,600

has gotten like a bit too good and the

709

00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,476

attention span is a bit too low for this

710

00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,760

to be meaningful to my life. Like

711

00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:19,520

it's fun, there's

712

00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,600

trends, there's like ways to participate

713

00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:24,400

in culture for sure, but that actually

714

00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,919

was the easiest for me to like

715

00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:28,640

because it's not I don't know. I don't

716

00:23:25,919 --> 00:23:31,280

have that many like social connections

717

00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,360

on it necessarily like friends. Yes.

718

00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:35,360

Whereas like Instagram for me was more

719

00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:36,640

like I feel like I thought I would

720

00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:38,559

feel like I was missing out on people's

721

00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,159

lives if I wasn't just paying attention

722

00:23:38,559 --> 00:23:42,320

to what everybody was doing in their

723

00:23:40,159 --> 00:23:42,960

story every day. Right.

724

00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,200

Yeah, exactly.

725

00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,440

But TikTok for me was just like it's

726

00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,640

just entertainment, it's pure entertainment.

727

00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,200

It's not like social connection

728

00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:53,520

necessarily. And so yeah, it was like

729

00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,120

easier to just step away from

730

00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,400

and just be like...

731

00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:59,919

Occasionally if I need to, I can like

732

00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,760

I'm fine with just scrolling and looking

733

00:23:59,919 --> 00:24:04,000

for like an interesting inspiration for

734

00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,360

a video or something like that, but most

735

00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,880

of the time

736

00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:10,480

it's not needed.

737

00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:12,559

Wow. I haven't ventured into TikTok.

738

00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,400

Potentially this podcast will have clips

739

00:24:12,559 --> 00:24:15,440

on there. I haven't decided yet.

740

00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,520

Yeah.

741

00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,080

But Instagram, I'm still battling that

742

00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,400

one.

743

00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:23,440

Yeah, I hear you. It's hard. But see the

744

00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:25,120

thing is like I think what changed for

745

00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,799

me was just like looking at it as like

746

00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:28,320

trying to be intentional about it. Like

747

00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:30,400

how are you using technology in your

748

00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,240

life and like is the technology serving

749

00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,960

you or are you serving the technology

750

00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,559

and like I want that balance to be in

751

00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:41,440

the way I prefer.

752

00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:44,480

Yeah. Exactly. And so how have you found

753

00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,679

disseminating scientific knowledge on

754

00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,679

TikTok

755

00:24:45,679 --> 00:24:50,000

as a platform?

756

00:24:47,679 --> 00:24:51,440

Yeah, pros and cons. I mean, you know,

757

00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,520

most of the time when I'm like

758

00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,520

disseminating our science, the form that

759

00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,080

takes for me is like, I don't know, a 30

760

00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,760

minute lecture and hour-long lectures to

761

00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,240

an audience that

762

00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,679

knows what I'm talking about and can

763

00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,679

understand like the majority of

764

00:25:03,679 --> 00:25:08,640

everything I say in that entire hour or

765

00:25:05,679 --> 00:25:11,600

whatever, right? TikTok is the polar

766

00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,840

opposite because sometimes it's making a

767

00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:16,000

4-second video about a vial

768

00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,720

knocking over which is like,

769

00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:22,400

it communicates something

770

00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,720

but it's like very shallow, right?

771

00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:27,600

And so in general you just have a lot

772

00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,919

less time to communicate things and so

773

00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,840

you have to be like very thoughtful

774

00:25:29,919 --> 00:25:32,400

about the message you're trying to get

775

00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,360

across.

776

00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:38,320

Yeah. But in a way, I think

777

00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:40,799

there's... What I really like about it is

778

00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,640

that you reach people you would never

779

00:25:40,799 --> 00:25:44,720

otherwise interact with. And I think

780

00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:47,600

that is very valuable and a gift and

781

00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,279

like why it's such a good tool because

782

00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,640

you know people that come to my talks,

783

00:25:49,279 --> 00:25:53,840

it's just like people at the university

784

00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,520

or the conference or whatever and they

785

00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,279

probably kind of know who you are but

786

00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,960

like these are like real strangers.

787

00:25:57,279 --> 00:26:01,039

Exactly. It's like your Jean-Claude

788

00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,640

appreciators. Like these are people you

789

00:26:01,039 --> 00:26:03,600

never would have had an audience with

790

00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,919

otherwise.

791

00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:08,880

Yeah, it is really amazing that you

792

00:26:05,919 --> 00:26:10,080

can connect to someone who's across the

793

00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,760

world

794

00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,279

who you would never

795

00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,640

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It's kind of fun to

796

00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:16,480

see like where things distribute, but

797

00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,200

yeah, your reach is so much more. It's

798

00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:21,120

just like the depth of information

799

00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,840

is not always like satisfying

800

00:26:21,120 --> 00:26:24,880

necessarily.

801

00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,960

Yes. Yes. And that's what I've struggled

802

00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,440

with too. It's, you know, there's sort

803

00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,200

of a sweet spot of a few seconds. What

804

00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,919

can you really convey? You can show cool

805

00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,760

cell or maybe it's a funny video in the

806

00:26:33,919 --> 00:26:38,218

lab. Like I have this one video of me

807

00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:41,360

like failing to get my pipet tip

808

00:26:38,218 --> 00:26:42,799

right on my pipette, and

809

00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:44,080

you know, what does that say? I don't

810

00:26:42,799 --> 00:26:48,000

really

811

00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:50,640

know. But then people I think start to

812

00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,679

at least engage with science

813

00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,279

in a different way.

814

00:26:51,679 --> 00:26:57,279

Yeah. And like that's that's the other

815

00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:58,720

thing is like I think when if you know a

816

00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:00,640

scientist, you probably know what

817

00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,200

science looks like or a lab looks like,

818

00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,919

but so many people don't. And so they

819

00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:08,159

wouldn't know like what a lab looks like

820

00:27:05,919 --> 00:27:08,559

and like what...

821

00:27:08,159 --> 00:27:10,960

Right. 

822

00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:13,440

What it actually like is. And so I

823

00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,039

think that's also really enlightening

824

00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,360

for people and makes it accessible in a

825

00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:20,320

way that like most people wouldn't know

826

00:27:17,360 --> 00:27:22,080

unless you're doing I guess a degree in

827

00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,880

science at a university or going to grad

828

00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,159

school? Right.

829

00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,000

You might if you're doing an undergrad

830

00:27:24,159 --> 00:27:28,400

degree in science, you might never see

831

00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,720

like inside of a lab like a research

832

00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,520

lab.

833

00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,360

Yeah. Like I did not until I did

834

00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:36,240

undergrad,

835

00:27:33,360 --> 00:27:38,400

you know. So I think it's really

836

00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:41,360

cool to be able to just like open an app

837

00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,039

and then start to see this other world.

838

00:27:41,360 --> 00:27:44,320

Totally. And that's what's special about

839

00:27:43,039 --> 00:27:46,240

social media for lots of different

840

00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,320

things, right? You see things you would

841

00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,000

never otherwise have access to. Yeah.

842

00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,880

So I think we should like make it more

843

00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,000

accessible in that way.

844

00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:57,279

Yeah, I agree. I think it's important to

845

00:27:54,000 --> 00:28:00,320

get the message out there and also

846

00:27:57,279 --> 00:28:03,440

there's so much information. It's not

847

00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,559

like if scientists don't post there will

848

00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,880

be nothing on science.

849

00:28:04,559 --> 00:28:10,960

For sure. Yeah. It's a vacuum.

850

00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:13,440

Yeah. So, it's great to have other voices

851

00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:16,000

as part of the conversation and also

852

00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,440

like everyone's experience of science is

853

00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:21,360

going to be different,

854

00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:23,840

right? And we're in a biomedical space but

855

00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:25,360

doing very different things. So our

856

00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:28,159

perspectives are going to be very

857

00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:30,480

different. And I think that's part of

858

00:28:28,159 --> 00:28:31,840

the fun is figuring out how to

859

00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,679

communicate with one another.

860

00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,799

For sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the

861

00:28:33,679 --> 00:28:39,279

amazing thing, right? Is like even like

862

00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:40,960

people in your like niche niche field

863

00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:43,039

probably know everything you're talking

864

00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,679

about, the jargon, the state-of-the-art,

865

00:28:43,039 --> 00:28:47,760

like the papers that are coming out. But

866

00:28:45,679 --> 00:28:49,840

if you think about the quantity of

867

00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,120

people, I mean, for us, it's probably

868

00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,159

like

869

00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:56,880

50 people maybe top that would like

870

00:28:54,159 --> 00:28:58,240

understand every single thing. So even

871

00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,440

like scientists and you're like, "Oh,

872

00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,480

you all speak the same language. You're

873

00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,000

kind of roughly doing the same thing."

874

00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,440

Like, "No, it's so different."

875

00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,520

Yeah. [laughter]

876

00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,880

So it's there's a lot of, you know,

877

00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:10,799

jargon. Um sometimes it facilitates

878

00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:13,520

discussion, but other times it's a

879

00:29:10,799 --> 00:29:16,480

hurdle even among scientists. I picked

880

00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:19,440

one of your papers.

881

00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:22,799

This is the 'Transfection potency of

882

00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:26,000

lipid nanoparticles containing mRNA

883

00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:28,799

depends on relative loading levels.' Yes.

884

00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,200

Very accessible paper for the lay

885

00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:33,160

audience.

886

00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,160

Exactly. It says open access. [laughter]

887

00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:36,640

That is like an extra joke on all of

888

00:29:35,039 --> 00:29:38,320

these things now, right? It's like open

889

00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,240

access if you have, if you're highly

890

00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,640

educated and know how to read this and

891

00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,679

understand it.

892

00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,840

Exactly. You know, it wasn't... Okay. My

893

00:29:43,679 --> 00:29:48,960

field for the audience is

894

00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:52,640

neuroscience, brain stem cells. That's

895

00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:56,799

my area of expertise. Uh, I know a

896

00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,600

little bit about mRNA just because of

897

00:29:56,799 --> 00:29:59,679

those cells

898

00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,480

that I use. Exactly. Right. It's in the

899

00:29:59,679 --> 00:30:04,159

cells. A little bit about

900

00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,200

nanoparticles. I have a song on it, so

901

00:30:04,159 --> 00:30:07,520

everyone should check that out.

902

00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,200

That's true. You are... I mean, you're an

903

00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,200

expert, I would say, if you're writing

904

00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,600

music about a topic. [laughter]

905

00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,559

I have worked with some nanoparticles

906

00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,240

in my time.

907

00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:16,960

Yeah, they come to the rescue. Check out

908

00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,080

the song, everyone.

909

00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:24,480

Exactly. Exactly. But definitely a

910

00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:27,360

new area to read about and in the paper...

911

00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,080

Okay let's start with just very basic

912

00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,360

mRNA.

913

00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,080

Like, what's happening here?

914

00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,799

Okay. [laughter]

915

00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,520

What is this molecule mRNA?

916

00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:37,360

Okay, so when I think about this I mean

917

00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:40,000

if you're talking to a scientist they'll

918

00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,760

usually start at like the central dogma

919

00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:44,559

right and I think you say that and then

920

00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,919

like the any I'm just thinking like if I

921

00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:47,279

start telling this like my family

922

00:30:45,919 --> 00:30:49,520

members I'm just going to see their like

923

00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:51,120

eyes glaze is over. So I like to start

924

00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,960

from a different point which is like

925

00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,960

what is our goal like what are we

926

00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:58,159

overall trying to accomplish here right?

927

00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:01,840

So my lab works on RNA vaccines and

928

00:30:58,159 --> 00:31:03,919

therapies and, so we use RNA for our

929

00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,000

vaccines and like what is the goal of a

930

00:31:03,919 --> 00:31:07,440

vaccine? So most people probably know

931

00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,440

this, right? You get vaccinated supposed

932

00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:12,240

to prevent a disease. We're trying to

933

00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:14,799

train your immune system to recognize a

934

00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,760

foreign pathogen like a virus like COVID

935

00:31:14,799 --> 00:31:16,399

or the flu,

936

00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,080

right?

937

00:31:16,399 --> 00:31:19,679

So how do we do that? There's many ways

938

00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,000

you can do that. Like you could just

939

00:31:19,679 --> 00:31:23,760

take the virus itself and that was the

940

00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,919

historical way of making vaccines,

941

00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,640

we make some vaccines still that way.

942

00:31:25,919 --> 00:31:28,640

Yeah.

943

00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,720

And you know there's pros and cons to

944

00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,360

every way of making vaccines. But

945

00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,520

instead of making the virus itself then

946

00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,679

we got better at making like the proteins

947

00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,360

or just a part of the virus itself and

948

00:31:37,679 --> 00:31:42,240

training your immune system to recognize

949

00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:44,320

that. And what RNA does instead is gives

950

00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,039

your body the instructions to make that

951

00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,799

protein to train your immune system to

952

00:31:47,039 --> 00:31:51,360

recognize that virus. Okay.

953

00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:53,760

So why that's like... Why do we care about

954

00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:56,080

making vaccines in different ways? So

955

00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,600

it's really hard again like

956

00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,159

manufacturing this is something that

957

00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,320

like makes people's eyes glaze over but

958

00:32:00,159 --> 00:32:04,559

it takes a really long time and a lot of

959

00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,519

resources to make these huge batches of

960

00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:09,440

viruses or even proteins because they

961

00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:12,320

require what's called like 'cell-based

962

00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:14,159

manufacturing' whereas making RNA is a

963

00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,919

lot cheaper and faster and completely

964

00:32:14,159 --> 00:32:18,799

synthetic. And so it just gives us a lot

965

00:32:15,919 --> 00:32:20,720

of advantages as far as like the timing,

966

00:32:18,799 --> 00:32:23,039

the cost, and the speed of manufacturing

967

00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,840

it. So that's why we like to use it.

968

00:32:23,039 --> 00:32:27,360

Wow. So it seems like there's a lot of

969

00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,600

benefits,

970

00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,919

practical benefits, for using this kind

971

00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:35,919

of molecule. And what this paper is

972

00:32:31,919 --> 00:32:39,760

showing is trying to figure out how mRNA

973

00:32:35,919 --> 00:32:42,640

will actually... How it is affected by the

974

00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:45,279

loading of the vehicle, the

975

00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,600

nanoparticle. Right. There's something

976

00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:49,919

called lipid nanoparticles

977

00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:52,640

and that's something well UBC has played

978

00:32:49,919 --> 00:32:54,399

a a integral part in it. So maybe you

979

00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,559

can touch upon the discoveries that have

980

00:32:54,399 --> 00:32:58,320

come out of UBC regarding that.

981

00:32:56,559 --> 00:32:59,760

Sure, yeah. Okay. So like maybe let's like

982

00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,519

take a step back and think about like

983

00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,679

what is a nanoparticle and again I like

984

00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:05,440

to focus on like the goal like why do we

985

00:33:03,679 --> 00:33:08,640

need this? What is the rationale here?

986

00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,399

So okay so we know RNA can give you the

987

00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,240

instructions. Why can't we just use like

988

00:33:10,399 --> 00:33:14,240

RNA itself or as people like to call it

989

00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:17,279

naked RNA which feels like inappropriate

990

00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:19,440

but RNA is like a large negatively

991

00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:21,360

charged molecule and the surface of our

992

00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,600

cells is also negatively charged. So

993

00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,240

they repel each other that RNA is not

994

00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:28,080

getting in without some sort of helper

995

00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,480

and so that's what we use the

996

00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,880

nanoparticles for is like that's our way

997

00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,279

of getting that RNA in a stealthy way

998

00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:37,360

inside your cells. And you're right. So

999

00:33:35,279 --> 00:33:39,760

UBC is really like the epicenter of

1000

00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,360

lipid nanoparticle technology which

1001

00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,600

people here still don't even realize

1002

00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,360

which is like yeah I mean I think this

1003

00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,519

is a very just like

1004

00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,440

scientists are humble and like not

1005

00:33:47,519 --> 00:33:51,679

trying to toot their own horn but yeah

1006

00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:54,480

for 50 years like Peter Cullis has been doing

1007

00:33:51,679 --> 00:33:57,440

this. He's been involved with like six

1008

00:33:54,480 --> 00:34:00,159

FDA approved drugs, and yeah I was like

1009

00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,240

at a conference last year and Michael Houghton

1010

00:34:00,159 --> 00:34:04,480

who's like a Canadian Nobel Prize winner

1011

00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,399

described Vancouver as like the Silicon

1012

00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,159

Valley of lipid nanoparticle technology

1013

00:34:06,399 --> 00:34:10,000

and I was like that's spot on that

1014

00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:11,679

really what it is like there's so many

1015

00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,480

companies here that work on this and

1016

00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:17,040

like lots of academics. So yeah, so we

1017

00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:18,879

have these nanoparticles and they're

1018

00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,720

the way that we like get this RNA into

1019

00:34:18,879 --> 00:34:22,560

cells otherwise it wouldn't get in by

1020

00:34:20,720 --> 00:34:24,960

itself. I think that's a great

1021

00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,639

explanation and it also brings me to

1022

00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:29,919

what I like to do when I go through

1023

00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:32,960

someone else's paper is mark down how

1024

00:34:29,919 --> 00:34:35,280

many words I don't know. I remember

1025

00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,879

when I was in undergrad in the first lab

1026

00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,919

that I worked in and they were like "Here

1027

00:34:36,879 --> 00:34:41,599

read these three papers." And I like

1028

00:34:39,919 --> 00:34:43,919

started reading one of the papers

1029

00:34:41,599 --> 00:34:46,639

probably like 25 times because I was

1030

00:34:43,919 --> 00:34:48,320

like this is just uninterpretable

1031

00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:50,079

and when you're having to look up like

1032

00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,399

every other word you're like what are

1033

00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:53,280

the like do we all speak the same

1034

00:34:52,399 --> 00:34:55,679

language?

1035

00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:58,800

Exactly, completely different language. So I came

1036

00:34:55,679 --> 00:35:01,200

to 14 not too bad and...

1037

00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,280

What's like a good score for that?

1038

00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:05,200

I don't know. I don't know. I've

1039

00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,400

only done a few of these where I

1040

00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,079

actually went through and counted the

1041

00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,200

numbers. So, I'll see where I balance.

1042

00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:10,400

That is interesting. I'm going to start

1043

00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,320

paying attention to that when I read

1044

00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,000

papers now.

1045

00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,280

But I like to pick a favourite word that

1046

00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,480

I learned.

1047

00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:20,314

And...

1048

00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,314

Oh, I hope I know it. [laughter]

1049

00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,960

Well, it's very practical to what you

1050

00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,920

were just talking about. Has to do with

1051

00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,640

the actual nanoparticle, how it gets

1052

00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:33,440

into the cell. Yeah. And that's the

1053

00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:36,880

lipids that are around it. So the

1054

00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,599

specific type, polyethylene glycol, PEG

1055

00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,254

lipids.

1056

00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:40,640

Okay. I do know this one. Good.

1057

00:35:39,254 --> 00:35:45,680

[laughter]

1058

00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:48,000

Can you touch a little bit upon how that

1059

00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:52,480

actually works?

1060

00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:54,400

So PEG ,polyethylene glycol, is

1061

00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,480

actually in lots of different things.

1062

00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,040

It's not just in nanoparticles. Very common

1063

00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,520

in cosmetics, very common in food, very

1064

00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:03,839

common in pharmaceutical things. What we

1065

00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,160

use it for is, as the name probably

1066

00:36:03,839 --> 00:36:07,920

implies, our lipid nanoparticles are

1067

00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:12,000

made of fats.

1068

00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:13,680

And so the way to stabilize them in when

1069

00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,480

you inject into a human, you need to

1070

00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:18,480

have like a water-based solution. And so

1071

00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:22,400

the way to stabilize them is like you

1072

00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:24,640

make a like crown of PEG around the

1073

00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,040

surface which makes this like water

1074

00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,160

layer and makes the particles actually

1075

00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,760

stable. Yeah.

1076

00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,480

So they stay at the size we want them to

1077

00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,599

be at.

1078

00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:36,880

It's really cool. And in this particular

1079

00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:39,280

paper you were looking at how different

1080

00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,359

amounts of mRNA actually get loaded into

1081

00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,599

these particles.

1082

00:36:41,359 --> 00:36:45,760

Yeah. Okay. So here's why again like why

1083

00:36:43,599 --> 00:36:48,480

this is important. So

1084

00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:50,480

a problem in our field is like and it's

1085

00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,160

kind of crazy. I mean the COVID-19 vaccines

1086

00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,760

worked but we're still learning and

1087

00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,960

optimizing so many things from there,

1088

00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,839

right? So that was like a great

1089

00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,320

foothold.

1090

00:36:55,839 --> 00:36:58,880

Right.

1091

00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,359

We still estimate that something like 2

1092

00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,280

to 5% of the RNA that's in our

1093

00:37:01,359 --> 00:37:04,079

formulation actually gets into someone's

1094

00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,960

cells.

1095

00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:09,520

So it's like a lot of waste, right? And

1096

00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,680

this paper was kind of trying to get at

1097

00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,839

like solving

1098

00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,359

not obviously in this but like there's a

1099

00:37:13,839 --> 00:37:17,280

lot of things to solve and a lot of

1100

00:37:15,359 --> 00:37:19,200

steps along that way.

1101

00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:21,920

But one of the really interesting things

1102

00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:23,440

is that when we make these particles and

1103

00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,680

like you could see we probably have an

1104

00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,680

illustration in there of a particle one

1105

00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:30,400

particle and it's like there's a perfect

1106

00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:32,320

little RNA inside and that that is

1107

00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,720

misleading in the way that we represent

1108

00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:37,280

them because they're so heterogeneous,

1109

00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:39,920

right? It's like they are in, you know,

1110

00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,599

a range of sizes. Some of them probably,

1111

00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,680

well, we know now some of them have

1112

00:37:41,599 --> 00:37:46,960

multiple copies of RNA in them. Some of

1113

00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,960

them have no RNA in them. And so we were

1114

00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,560

kind of wondering like, do those

1115

00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,640

empties, are they needed? Do they help?

1116

00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,720

Are they like taking away from it?

1117

00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,560

Right. And so that's what we were

1118

00:37:56,720 --> 00:38:00,079

trying to get at is like right now we

1119

00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,000

don't have great control like we can't

1120

00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:03,599

really make a formulation with no

1121

00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,280

empties but we were just trying to

1122

00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:05,760

understand like what are those empties

1123

00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,960

doing.

1124

00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,760

Right. Right. And it's so interesting

1125

00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:14,079

because as you mentioned Peter Cullis

1126

00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,880

has been working on the lipid

1127

00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:20,240

nanoparticles for such a long time.

1128

00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:24,720

mRNA its discovery in the 60s and then

1129

00:38:20,240 --> 00:38:26,480

as a possible therapeutic has been

1130

00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:27,440

several decades

1131

00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,240

in the making.

1132

00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,079

Correct.

1133

00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:36,960

And then okay, 2020 happens. It's all of

1134

00:38:32,079 --> 00:38:39,680

a sudden part of the general talk

1135

00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,240

and a lot of people don't know what it

1136

00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:41,760

is.

1137

00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:43,680

Yeah. I mean a lot of people a lot of

1138

00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,200

scientists are like "What is an RNA